Baby: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
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Katie: Howdy and welcome to The Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness with an E on the tip, our new private care line of fully secure and extremely efficient private care merchandise. I feel this episode is extraordinarily well timed contemplating the dynamics that every one of us are navigating proper now. I’m right here with Dr. Laurie Santos, who’s a Professor of Psychology and head of the Silliman Faculty at Yale College in addition to the host of the critically acclaimed podcast, The Happiness Lab. And after observing a disturbing degree of unhappiness and nervousness amongst her faculty college students, she started educating a course entitled “Psychology and the Good Life” which shortly turned the preferred course in Yale’s historical past with over a thousand enrollees within the first-class and has additionally reached nearly 2 million individuals from all around the world by a web-based model, which shall be linked within the present notes at wellnessmama.fm if you need to test it out. And though she’s now greatest often known as a happiness skilled, her analysis additionally explores the broader query of what makes the human thoughts distinctive? And infrequently consists of evaluating the cognitive capabilities of nonhuman animals to people. And on this episode, we go actually deep on not simply the science of happiness and what we find out about issues that result in happiness versus people who don’t, but in addition some research-backed sensible methods that we are able to all implement even throughout these unsure instances that result in extra happiness. It was a extremely, actually enjoyable interview, and I do know that you’ll take pleasure in it and study from it identical to I did. So, with out additional ado, let’s soar in.
Dr. Santos, welcome. Thanks for being right here.
Dr. Santos: Thanks a lot for having me on the podcast.
Katie: I’m so excited to have you ever right here. I feel your analysis is unimaginable and particularly important proper now. I feel we’ve got some nice subjects to dive into right this moment. However for people who find themselves not acquainted, let’s begin broad, are you able to inform us about what “The Happiness Lab” is?
Dr. Santos: So “The Happiness Lab” is a podcast that I host which is all in regards to the science of happiness. And the fundamental premise of “The Happiness Lab” is that our thoughts type of lies to us in regards to the types of issues that make us glad. So all of us have these hypotheses in regards to the types of issues we must always do to really feel higher. You already know, we might change our job or change {our relationships} or, you realize, principally change our circumstances in some sense. However the science means that these issues don’t actually have the impression on happiness that we expect. And so the podcast is all in regards to the sorts of issues you are able to do to actually really feel higher in an evidence-based manner.
Katie: I really like that. And that type of got here from, you train at Yale from what I’ve learn, is that appropriate?
Dr. Santos: Sure. So I’m a professor at Yale. And a few years in the past, I began a brand new class on Yale’s campus on the science of happiness, it was referred to as Psychology and the Good Life. And the category emerged out of the truth that in my new position on campus as a head of school the place I stay with college students, I began to see that college students had been, like, much more sad than I bear in mind being in faculty. You already know, college students had been extremely depressed and overwhelmed and simply type of anxious on a regular basis and that was actually irritating as a result of these had been, you realize, college students that I cared about who’re in my residential faculty group.
But it surely was additionally irritating as a result of as scientists, we actually know that there’s evidence-based practices that we might interact in to really feel higher, you realize, there are these extremely easy interventions that every one of us could be doing to enhance our wellbeing. Once more, like not extremely however with, you realize, significance and in methods that may actually enhance our functioning. And so I made a decision to develop this new class to show my Yale college students all about these totally different interventions in regards to the science of happiness and what they may do to really feel higher.
What I didn’t anticipate is that it might grow to be the biggest class ever in Yale College’s historical past, over a thousand college students enrolled within the class, which was actually surreal and really shocking. However that made me notice that, you realize, there’s an enormous demand for this sort of content material. And so the podcast was a response to that demand, it was a approach to give the content material of the category to people who may not have time for an Ivy League course on their very own.
Katie: I really like that. And you’ve got some unimaginable episodes, I’ll be certain that I hyperlink to a few of these within the present notes right here. Earlier than we soar into type of understanding the psychology of happiness and sensible ways in which we are able to transfer towards that, how do you outline happiness as a time period? As a result of I really feel like perhaps there’s numerous misconstrued definitions of that phrase.
Dr. Santos: So there’s, you realize, in all probability as many definitions of happiness as there are, like, sorts of happiness and issues. I feel one of many methods we give it some thought within the podcast and in my class is to take extra of a, like, nerdy social scientist definition of happiness, it’s type of the definition that scientists use, however I feel it really works fairly nicely. And so we consider happiness as having two components. So it’s being glad in your life and being glad along with your life. So being glad in your life is simply the truth that issues really feel good to you on a day-to-day foundation. You expertise a number of constructive feelings, issues like pleasure and happiness and laughter, and also you expertise, you realize, fewer unfavorable feelings, so much less despair and nervousness and unhappiness and anger and issues like that. In order that’s type of being glad in your life.
However there’s a second part, too, to happiness, which is to be glad along with your life. And by that I imply, all issues thought-about, you’re type of glad with how your life goes. And so what the analysis suggests is that maximizing these two components, type of glad in your life and glad along with your life, is admittedly the way in which to advertise a extremely excessive subjective wellbeing. And you will get to associations between these. I feel a number of dad and mom have skilled no less than one the place it’s like, you realize, whenever you first have a new child child, I feel you’re actually glad along with your life, you realize, you are feeling your life is so significant and you’ve got this new youngster to deal with, however in your life, you realize, it’s numerous, like, not sleeping and coping with the actually soiled diapers. And so I feel there are occasions when these issues can cut up however if you happen to actually wish to maximize happiness, one of the best ways to do it’s to ensure you’re experiencing a number of constructive emotion and feeling actually glad usually with how your life goes.
Katie: Bought it. Okay, that is sensible. And I’m guessing with this subsequent query, the reply shall be that there’s in all probability a really individualized and personalised reply for every particular person. I work on the diet aspect of well being and increasingly, I’ve come to search out that, whereas there are some generalities, discovering our personal very personalised diet and well being plan requires self-experimentation and that the reply isn’t the identical for all people. However I’m curious, so perhaps the higher approach to phrase the query can be what frequent denominators have we discovered that separate individuals who have each of these sorts of happiness from individuals who don’t?
Dr. Santos: Effectively, there are many various factors and so they’re not those we anticipate, you realize, we assume that the individuals who have a number of pleasure and happiness with their life are, like, the extremely profitable individuals, you realize, individuals with tons of accolades or actually good circumstances. However the information means that our life circumstances matter so much lower than we expect. You already know, how wealthy you’re, what job you will have, if you happen to’re in a relationship. All that stuff doesn’t matter as a lot as we expect.
What issues extra are some things. One is type of precisely what you had been saying, wholesome habits. And people could be wholesome habits in regard to consuming, these could be wholesome habits in regard to sleep and particularly in regard to train. There’s work suggesting {that a} half-hour of cardio a day is about as efficient as a prescription of Zoloft, the anti-depression medicine for decreasing despair signs. So we overlook that, you realize, the way in which we deal with our our bodies can matter so much.
However a second factor that we actually want to enhance happiness in our life and with our life is social connection. We consider happiness as being about self-care, you realize, this concept of “deal with your self” kind of factor. However in follow, the really glad individuals on the market are usually actually other-oriented. You already know, they’re fearful about what’s occurring with different individuals. You already know, they actually wish to attain out and do random acts of kindness. They’re actually grateful for the people who find themselves round them and so they categorical that gratitude.
And most significantly, they actually prioritize time with the individuals they care about. Each obtainable survey of glad those who I find out about means that glad individuals spend extra time with others, in order that they’re bodily round different individuals extra usually and so they usually prioritize the those who they care about, you realize, in order that they make time for, you realize, their family and friends members and family members.
And so then a last piece of happiness I might say is usually kind of our mindset. You already know, if we’re bringing a mindset of gratitude, of presence, of mindfulness, of noticing how we really feel every day, these sorts of habits can actually promote each the type of the life satisfaction a part of happiness but in addition the temper a part of happiness, like feeling glad in your life additionally.
Katie: Bought it. And I really feel like there’s usually an inside script, no less than I do know I can say this for myself of, “If solely,” you realize, fill within the clean, “then I might be glad.” And for me, it was like for a really very long time fighting weight, like, “If solely I used to be this dimension, then I might be glad,” or, “If solely my funds had been this, then I might be glad.” And I feel perhaps all of us have some model of that script that we type of imagine, even when it in all probability isn’t really true. And I do know for me, with the well being and the physique aspect, I really needed to fully shift that. And it was once I began loving myself and selecting to be glad and selecting gratitude that the burden stuff really began resolving itself. But it surely took that eliminating that script of, “If solely this occurred, then I might be glad,” and selecting, “I’m gonna be glad now,” after which that ultimately resolved itself. However why do you assume we would like this stuff that don’t really make us happier? What will get us in that script or that loop?
Dr. Santos: I imply, that’s the million-dollar query as a result of I’m with you on each single half that you just talked about about like, you realize, “Once I’m skinny, I’ll be glad,” or, you realize, “When my podcast will get to primary, I’ll be glad,” or no matter, proper? Like we’re continually placing our happiness on some circumstance sooner or later. And it’s unsuitable for two causes. One is that, you realize, we’re much less prone to get there if we’re not glad really.
So numerous the analysis means that our causal arrow about happiness is backwards. We expect success at reaching our targets will make us glad however there’s additionally numerous analysis suggesting that happiness itself can assist us attain our targets. So people who find themselves happier are usually more healthy. You already know, if you happen to’re happier at time one, you’ll be much less prone to catch illnesses, you’ll be extra prone to stay longer. Completely satisfied individuals are inclined to carry out higher at work, you realize, so glad persons are those that get higher efficiency critiques and so forth.
Completely satisfied persons are extra prone to be in a relationship and extra prone to be in glad marriages afterward. And these are all research which have been finished longitudinally. So we are able to have a look at happiness at time one and see if that predicts, say, if you happen to’re in a relationship at time two. And so I feel that’s type of a part of it’s that one of many largest errors is that we get the causal arrow unsuitable. We expect, “Once I get, you realize, X, Y and Z, I’ll be glad.” However really for numerous the issues we would like, specializing in being glad first will assist us get the issues that we would like, the circumstances in life we would like later.
However the different drawback is that basically, our circumstances aren’t the important thing to happiness, that’s actually what the information suggests notably with physique picture stuff. There’s a number of proof suggesting that, you realize, individuals who obtain their weight reduction targets or individuals who get cosmetic surgery, you realize, assuming that these sorts of issues will make you content. Like, they don’t make you as glad as you assume or usually for so long as you assume. So then you’ll be able to simply type of return to these different random patterns.
Even if you happen to get the stuff you need, if you happen to’re caught in that, like, unhealthy loop of considering, what occurs is as quickly as you get what you need, you simply return to considering that however simply for one thing else. And we’ve seen this, we even have a complete episode of this on our podcast, an episode referred to as “The Sad Millionaire” the place we speak about this in individuals’s circumstances with cash the place individuals assume, you realize, “If solely I might make $1 million, I’d be glad.” However then the analysis exhibits that as quickly as individuals really get that million {dollars}, then they’re like, “Effectively, now I want $50 million,” you realize, “Now I should be a billionaire,” proper? “I can’t be glad till I’m really a billionaire.”
And all the outcomes counsel that, you realize, when you get there, you’re nonetheless not gonna be glad. And so I feel one of many issues the analysis exhibits is that we have to escape of these thought loops and a approach to escape of these thought loops is to understand the stuff that basically does matter. Form of precisely as you’ve proven in your story that when you bought out of that loop and actually centered on the stuff that mattered, like unexpectedly, the issues fell into line anyway, all of the circumstances fall into line anyway.
Katie: Precisely, that is sensible. And I really like that you just introduced up, that’s an amazing episode I’ve listened to of yours, “The Sad Millionaire.” I’ll be certain that I hyperlink to that. And I feel we’ve got a novel time to really see that proper now with all the unusual social dynamics and isolation that’s occurring. And we’ve got all of those celebrities which are caught of their multi-multi-multimillion-dollar mansions and so they’re not glad and so they’re remoted. And we’re seeing this play out on social media and I do know there’s been numerous backlash towards superstar tradition due to a few of these elements.
However I feel it’s additionally a extremely essential time to speak about, you talked about relationships being one of many massive elements in happiness. And proper now we’re type of on this unprecedented time of isolation for lots of people. So I’m curious if, A, when you’ve got any simply overarching methods for coping with numerous the feelings which are occurring for lots of people proper now that in all probability are interfering with happiness.
Dr. Santos: I feel it’s actually important. I imply, I feel simply to type of validate, like we’re in a extremely unimaginable, surreal, unusual, terrible time in a number of methods. And so I feel doing methods that enhance your wellbeing is extra essential now than ever. If partly due to the sorts of issues I used to be saying and, you realize, we get the causal arrow of happiness unsuitable. And there’s proof suggesting that being happier can really present a bit enhance to your immune operate. There’s research the place you introduce, like, topics to respiratory viruses and also you range their temper and also you have a look at who really catches the respiratory viruses and you discover that, like, having a contented temper or having a stance of being extra constructive really makes you much less prone to catch viruses.
Once more, not like proof against viruses, clearly, like you need to nonetheless be washing your fingers, and socially distancing and all these items we all know we have to do throughout COVID however, you realize, it’s one other approach to type of shield your physique, too. So I feel it’s much more important now to be a bit happier. However, you realize, one of many fundamental issues I listed as related for happiness, social connection, is fairly onerous in a time of social distancing. You already know, many people can’t do the social issues that we’re used to doing. You already know, exit for brunch with associates or, like, hang around with our members of the family in the event that they stay distant. Like, these are the issues that we’re not allowed to do as a result of we’re attempting to guard our bodily well being.
The excellent news is that social distancing doesn’t should imply social disconnection. We will discover methods to attach with different individuals, you realize, by all types of applied sciences that we in our trendy age are fortunate sufficient to have. You already know, you and I are speaking proper now over Zoom and though you’re distant and, you realize, we’re socially distanced from one another, we are able to actually join and have this actually cool dialog. These are ways in which we needs to be connecting with different individuals round us, utilizing applied sciences from simply, like, the great quaint cellphone to issues like FaceTime and Zoom to speak to the individuals we care about simply to see their faces, join with them, that’s gonna be extremely highly effective throughout this powerful time.
However we are able to additionally do issues that aren’t essentially as formal as we prefer to assume with these applied sciences. I feel a number of us know that we are able to use these applied sciences to attach, like, say, in like a piece convention name or one thing like that or such as you and I are doing, like for a podcast interview. However we overlook that we are able to use these applied sciences to attach actually informally, and that’s the social connection that we’re tremendous lacking proper now. You already know, just like the chat along with your pal on the water cooler at work or, you realize, like having your neighbor cease by, you realize, whilst you’re, you realize, making dinner and he or she is available in for a few minutes or one thing. These are the sorts of casual interactions we have to replicate over applied sciences, too.
And so I’ve been attempting to do that myself of easy issues like, you realize, “I’m gonna do a yoga class on-line,” it’s like, “Effectively, let me simply textual content my pal and see if she desires to do the identical one with me.” Or I’m like chopping up, you realize, greens for dinner or one thing and I’m simply gonna be doing that for, like, a half-hour. And it’s like, “Oh, let me see if I can, like, Zoom name a superb pal of mine up the road so we are able to simply chat whereas I’m chopping greens,” or one thing. These sorts of casual makes use of of those applied sciences are gonna be actually highly effective for our wellbeing as a result of they’re making up for the casual interactions that we’re lacking throughout the day due to this disaster.
Katie: These are nice concepts. And my hope, I imply, such as you stated, that is fully unprecedented, we’ve by no means needed to face one thing like this in our technology actually earlier than. My hope is that societally after which like as a bunch, we are able to hold a few of the good issues which may come from this. Like I’m listening to so many individuals gardening for the primary time, for occasion, or many individuals are studying or relearning tips on how to cook dinner at house and spending extra time with their youngsters. And I feel there could be good in numerous the issues which are occurring proper now. I additionally hope that as issues begin to open up ultimately, it reminds us to have gratitude for these issues we used to take for granted, for these quiet moments within the espresso store or simply attending to hug a pal or simply attending to have these casual moments collectively, such as you stated. However I feel from having listened to your podcast, one other frequent theme in terms of that, even whereas we’re nonetheless remoted, is gratitude. And also you speak about gratitude in a number of totally different types, however how does gratitude relate to happiness?
Dr. Santos: So there’s a number of proof that gratitude is, in some methods, important for happiness, like a totally free intervention you’ll be able to take proper now that can enhance up your wellbeing considerably and for a extremely very long time. We now have a complete episode popping out in our second season of the podcast, which I don’t bear in mind whenever you’re, like, you’re launching this, however I wanna say, we’ve got a complete episode popping out within the second season of our podcast in regards to the energy of gratitude. And the issues with the alternative of gratitude, which is a superb factor, proper? Which I feel is, like, very in proper now culturally. Like everybody desires to complain and I really feel like, particularly within the context of COVID-19, there’s numerous type of complaining going round from, you realize, sharing type of memes about how silly that is and complaining about socially distancing and all these items.
However the information suggests that basically taking time to expertise your blessings could be actually highly effective. There’s some work suggesting that the easy act of scribbling down three to 5 stuff you’re grateful for day by day can considerably begin boosting your wellbeing in as little as two weeks. And there’s additionally proof suggesting that expressing your gratitude to the individuals round you can provide longstanding boosts to your wellbeing. One research by the constructive psychologist Marty Seligman and his colleagues present that the act of doing a gratitude go to the place you, say, name any person up and kind of share what you’re grateful for about them, with them, that may really enhance your wellbeing for over a month, so that you see vital will increase in wellbeing that lasts for over a month, which is type of loopy and all we are able to all use proper now.
However I feel that the ability of gratitude is that it’s simply an emotion that makes you are feeling higher and it additionally builds up resilience over time. And so proper now the secret is simply to search out, you realize, blessings of our each day life or expertise issues that we’re grateful for. And I feel type of precisely what you stated earlier than is that this disaster has brought about so many people to understand all of this stuff that we must always have been extremely grateful for that we had been simply actively taking for granted. You already know, for me, it’s just like the weekly, you realize, each day, even, like going to my espresso store. Like, you realize, I’ve my favourite espresso store right here in New Haven and I might go there and get espresso day by day.
It wasn’t like each morning once I went there, I used to be simply, like, extremely glad and, like, savored that espresso and, like, knew that it was this large blessing in my life, I simply assumed it was one thing that I’d be capable to do day by day endlessly. However now within the context of this disaster, I spotted like, “Oh, my gosh, I ought to have been extremely grateful for that.” Once I lastly get out of this disaster and get to go get my favourite latte once more, like, I’m gonna be ecstatic. And I feel precisely as you had been saying, there’s going to be so many issues for which that’s true. So many new habits that we could be grateful for however so many issues we took for granted earlier than that we’re going to actually deeply respect as soon as we get out of this.
Katie: Completely. I do know, hopefully by the point this airs, perhaps that’s beginning to be in course of in numerous locations, however even when it’s not, I feel I’ve at all times thought, you realize, it’s simple. I exploit the motto in my life rather a lot, “Amor fati,” which comes from Stoicism and it means principally “love of destiny” or “love what’s.” And I at all times assume, you realize, that’s a straightforward factor to comply with when life was nice and, you realize, two months in the past when life was regular and fantastic and I had so many issues that had been simply, it was simple to search out gratitude. And I really feel like issues like that or that is the precise measure of them and the check of them for us in our lives is, can we nonetheless discover that gratitude when it’s onerous?
So in some methods, this can be a type of an ideal time to follow gratitude as a result of there are nonetheless many issues to be grateful for, such as you stated, even on this disaster. And if we begin trying for these now and develop that behavior now, it’s gonna be even simpler when issues begin to return, hopefully to extra like they had been earlier than when we’ve got much more to be grateful for. And in my very own life, I do know a few issues which have actually helped me is, such as you talked about, retaining a gratitude journal and I’ve a gratitude/artwork journal. So day by day I simply spend time jotting down issues I’m grateful for after which additionally simply doodling as a result of that helps me simply, like, mentally really feel glad and I take pleasure in it and it’s type of a remedy for me.
After which additionally with my youngsters at dinner, we attempt to make an effort to ask them, “What are you grateful for right this moment?” Simply to maintain, even from a younger age, have them begin considering of life by that lens of what are… After which they now look all through the day to have concepts of issues to be grateful for once we ask them simply to begin type of framing their thoughts to look for the great and to look for the issues to be grateful for. And I completely can perceive, for numerous us, it’s a lot more durable than regular to do these issues proper now. However these are simply a few sensible methods which have been actually useful for me personally.
Additionally, numerous the individuals listening are dad and mom and I really feel like this disaster is perhaps particularly onerous on dad and mom who’ve youngsters now house 24/7 and who at the moment are homeschooling with no discover in any way and who’re taking over all of those further roles and further obligations and remoted for so lengthy. In order dad and mom proper now and total are there ways in which we are able to enhance our happiness or sensible methods particularly for dad and mom? As a result of I feel mothers usually get the recommendation of, “Oh, you simply must do extra self-care. It’s essential discover time for your self,” and sometimes that simply appears like one other to-do checklist merchandise. So any recommendation particular to folks?
Dr. Santos: I imply, I feel first is validating. Like, that is an extremely difficult time usually. And it’s positively not a time once we ought to begin, you realize, our new babysitting service or our new, like, math tutoring service for our children however many people are on this place. And so I feel one of many items of recommendation for dad and mom is simply to make use of some self-compassion right here. And by that, I imply, like, don’t beat your self up, you realize, this example is tough sufficient as it’s with out you feeling the, like, type of social comparability of, you realize, “That different mother is, like, educating her youngsters in regards to the planets and I’m simply letting my child, like, play Xbox.” Like, it’s fantastic. Like, this isn’t the time to beat your self up.
And by way of, like, how to do this as a result of it’s one factor to say it, however it’s one other to, like, really do it, there’s some methods that come from science that may be actually highly effective right here. And so a type of methods is a type of meditation often known as loving-kindness meditation. It sounds a bit tacky however it’s a type of meditation the place you actually simply attempt to expertise compassion for the individuals in your life. So the follow is you actually sit down and also you get in your type of meditation seat or one thing after which assume by the individuals in your life and need them nicely. You already know, so take into consideration your child or somebody who’s very easy to really feel compassion for and simply say, you realize, “Might you be glad, could you be nicely, could you care for your self joyfully,” these sorts of expressions of wishing the particular person nicely.
And you then type of undergo different individuals in your life. However the cause this follow is related for self-compassion is that one of many individuals you’re imagined to assume these compassionate ideas about is your self. You already know, so in some unspecified time in the future within the meditation, you’re imagined to assume, “Might I be glad, could I be secure, could I care for myself joyfully,” and so forth. And what the analysis suggests is that the act of doing these sorts of practices can actually bump up the compassion you are feeling usually however it may possibly particularly bump up the compassion that you just really feel for your self. It could make you cease beating your self up a bit bit.
These sorts of practices, they will also be actually useful towards burnout as a result of burnout is admittedly about attempting to do an excessive amount of, both type of not being compassionate for your self or type of simply, like, so taking over the struggling of all people else about, like, “What’s my child gonna assume?” or, “What’s my husband gonna assume?” or, What’s my child’s trainer gonna assume?” and so forth that you just type of don’t do the best issues. You don’t find yourself defending your self. You tackle greater than that you must. And so by this energy of self-compassion, you notice, like, the objective isn’t perfection, the objective is, like, “Might I be nicely,” you realize, “could I be glad,” and so you find yourself placing the best issues into place. And so this can be a follow that may be actually highly effective. It, too, is a factor that you just type of have so as to add to the to-do checklist, however it’s actually a part of the to-do checklist that’s, like, a two-minute a part of the to-do checklist.
You already know, you are able to do a loving-kindness meditation by sitting in your meditation cushion for 5 minutes however it’s also possible to do it and assume these constructive ideas, like, whenever you’re brushing your enamel or whenever you’re within the bathe or when you will have a type of quiet second whenever you’re first waking up within the morning. I’ve been attempting to institute extra constructive thought meditation practices earlier than I do the, like, pick-up-the-phone factor within the morning as the very first thing. I’m like, “Wait, let me depart the cellphone and let me, you realize, like, want the individuals in my life a bit compassion earlier than I type of decide up the cellphone and begin checking electronic mail or panic-scrolling.” So, it’s one other factor you need to do, however it doesn’t really take that a lot time and it may possibly have large, large advantages.
Katie: I really like that, that’s such nice recommendation. I feel something sensible proper now could be so useful. To type of loop again to one thing earlier, why, I do know we talked about loops a bit bit and that psychological loop and specializing in happiness first. However why do people, typically, wish to pursue this stuff that don’t make us glad within the first place?
Dr. Santos: That may be a million-dollar query. I really feel like if we might simply remedy that one scientifically, we’d be such happier critters and, like, remedy a lot struggling on this planet. One trace comes from the actual fact, I assume I’ll go together with two hints, one trace comes from the truth that, you realize, over evolutionary time, the objective of pure choice wasn’t essentially to make us a contented species, it was to make us a striving species. You already know, that received as many sources we might or as many reproductive companions as we might. And so, you realize, our programs aren’t constructed to be glad, they’re constructed to, like, get increasingly stuff and by no means really feel satiated. And in order that type of comes a bit bit from our evolutionary historical past.
We will battle it, after all, you realize, we could be extra conscious and give you higher methods. However our pure behavior, except we put in some work, is perhaps to type of, you realize, work and try a bit bit greater than we have to to be glad. However a second perception really comes from the way in which our brains are arrange, which is among the type of annoying options of our personal minds is the truth that we’ve got totally different neural circuits for wanting issues. So, just like the issues we crave are the issues we hunt down versus liking issues like what we really take pleasure in on the market on this planet. And so you’ll be able to see these circuits dissociate most powerfully within the context of habit.
So, say, when you’ve got a heroin habit and also you’ve had a heroin habit for a while, you’re gonna have unimaginable wanting for the drug. You’re gonna crave it like loopy and, you realize, damage individuals to get it. You’re gonna do all these items wanting this drug actually badly, however whenever you lastly get the drug, you’re so habituated to it that you just don’t really even take pleasure in it. Prefer it type of simply strikes you to baseline, it doesn’t have the enhance that it had earlier than. And in order that’s only one instance that wanting and liking can dissociate.
However I feel that this occurs in all totally different contexts of our lives, you talked about physique picture and stuff. I skilled that myself the place I might have many factors in my life the place I used to be, like, obsessive about how my physique regarded and actually eager to be skinnier and it might, like, my wanting system would get caught on that on a regular basis. However then at instances once I really had misplaced weight in my life, I didn’t even actually take pleasure in it. Typically, I wasn’t even actually that conscious of it, it felt fantastic however it wasn’t, you realize, the factor I used to be actually trying for. And I feel we are able to get that in all these totally different behavior loops. “I actually, actually need a relationship,” or, “I actually, really need this wage degree,” however you then get it and also you don’t really prefer it, there’s this disassociation.
The identical I fear is admittedly true of the alternative, I’ve skilled this with numerous wellness practices, proper? Like, I actually, actually like doing yoga. I actually, actually like train, however I don’t have the identical craving for it that I do for, like, a extremely unhealthy, you realize, sugary meals. Like though I actually prefer it, my, like, wanting system hasn’t gotten into gear. And so, you realize, this raises a query of how one can get these two programs speaking to one another, how one can hyperlink them up higher. And the sincere reply is, like, they’re simply type of separate and so it’s onerous to do. However a method you are able to do a bit bit higher is to take time to be a bit bit extra conscious, is to type of discover how practices actually make you are feeling.
So when you’ve got one thing that you just’re actually craving and also you lastly get it, take time to note. Like, “Did I even actually like that?” You already know, like, I expertise this so much in my each day life with issues like social media, proper? The place I’ve this actually sturdy urge to, like, test my electronic mail or, like, go on Twitter or one thing and I’ve been attempting to take time to note it. “How did that truly really feel? Did I actually like that?” Like, “No, like I felt type of apathetic or a bit gross,” or no matter versus issues like, you realize, more healthy consuming or meditation or yoga or one thing like that the place afterwards I used to be like, “Huh, like I really actually preferred that greater than I anticipated, I really feel resilient now, I really feel more healthy, I really feel simply calmer.” Taking time to note and be conscious about what you want can typically provide help to replace that wanting system the place the wanting system can discover and be like, “Oh, that was fairly good. Like, perhaps I ought to crave that a bit extra sooner or later.”
Katie: I really like that. And I feel you’re proper. I feel physique picture is very a sticking level for numerous ladies. Even ladies who’ve numerous the opposite areas discovered and who’re actually, like, dialed in with their wellness follow or their youngsters or their profession, I feel that one is simply, we’re in all probability evolutionarily wired due to these elements you talked about in copy or, and in addition now society, there’s billion-dollar industries constructed on telling us we should be and look a sure manner.
And for me, I feel it was realizing over time after which consciously altering that script in my head, it wasn’t that being skinny, I assumed being skinny was gonna make me glad, however it was being skinny in my thoughts was a illustration for feeling comfy in my very own pores and skin and accepting my physique and accepting myself. And I spotted that was one thing I didn’t have to attend till I used to be a sure dimension to do. And so shifting towards that, it was simply wonderful how I assumed I used to be so laser-focused on the burden. And once I began altering the mindset, I spotted I had the selection to have happiness proper now. And that didn’t imply I wasn’t nonetheless gonna give attention to wellness and I wasn’t nonetheless gonna attempt to shed extra pounds and be more healthy, however I used to be in a position to begin selecting happiness to a big diploma and accepting myself way more by switching the way in which that I considered that in my thoughts. And positively it was an extended course of. It wasn’t like I simply awoke in the future and did that. I simply assume ladies particularly, that’s a extremely powerful one to get by.
Dr. Santos: I do know, I agree fully. And I feel, I really like this concept of, you realize, change your mindset quite than attempt to change the circumstances as a result of that may do a bunch of various issues. One is it may possibly make you grateful for what you will have, proper? Like it may possibly make you notice like, you realize, “Possibly my physique isn’t completely good however it’s really wholesome, it’s doing what I would like.” Like, you realize, “It’s carrying me from place to put, it’s letting me deal with my youngsters.” Like it may possibly assist you to notice that there are such a lot of issues to understand about your physique.
After which what that does is it winds up, like, by the mechanism of appreciation, making you wish to deal with your physique, proper? You already know, so you then wish to eat wholesome otherwise you wish to sleep extra, you wish to train extra. And doing these issues is gonna wind up making you more healthy it doesn’t matter what your physique dimension. You already know, I subscribe so much to those concepts of kind of well being at any dimension which is that, you realize, there’s numerous issues that management our physique weight which are type of out of our management, you realize, your thyroid operate and all these items.
However all of us, the factor we are able to management is what we’re placing into our our bodies, how we’re shifting our our bodies, you realize, how a lot sleep we’re getting and so forth. And if you happen to’re specializing in these issues, then, like, the stuff you had been actually fearful about along with your physique weight, you realize, it’ll come into line naturally. Possibly as a result of your physique weight comes extra into line with what’s wholesome for you. However even when it doesn’t, like, the stuff you actually needed to get out of a wholesome physique weight, you’re gonna get anyway if you happen to change your mindset.
Katie: That’s an amazing level.
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One other issue that I do know you’ve talked about in your podcast and that folks in all probability can perceive results in happiness is a few type of model of charity or serving to others. And I do know personally, like, a few of the instances I felt the perfect have been once I wasn’t self-focused in any respect however centered on different individuals. And we see it actually like in, when there’s pure disasters. We stay in an space that received hit by a hurricane a few years in the past and the group got here collectively and all of us centered on serving to one another. And I do know, like, the sensation of that, though it was exhausting and it was horrible to see individuals who had misplaced a lot however I felt so extremely glad having the ability to tangibly do one thing to assist different individuals. So are you able to speak about that hyperlink between happiness and charity and the way specializing in others can usually assist us shift as nicely?
Dr. Santos: I’m glad you introduced that up as a result of I feel that is one other one of many misnomers about happiness. You already know, we expect happiness is about, you utilize the time period “self-care,” however much more issues like, “Deal with your self,” you realize, “Do for your self,” like, “Give attention to your self,” like self, self, self. However the science means that glad individuals don’t try this, glad individuals have a tendency to present extra to charity than not-so-happy individuals managed for earnings. Completely satisfied individuals are inclined to volunteer extra of their time.
And there’s analysis suggesting that if you happen to take not-so-happy individuals or simply common individuals and also you make them do good issues for others, they are going to over time get happier. There’s one beautiful research by the psychologist Liz Dunn and her colleagues the place she has individuals, she walks as much as individuals on the road and simply provides them some cash so, you realize, “Right here’s 5 bucks,” or, “Right here’s 20 bucks,” on the road. However she tells these topics tips on how to spend it, they both should spend that cash on themselves by the tip of the day, so type of deal with themselves, or they should spend the cash on another person, they should do one thing good for somebody.
And what she finds is that on the finish of the day, the individuals who did the good factor for others are glad. And I discover this work so putting as a result of, you realize, usually once I assume if I’m in a foul temper or if I’m harassed and even, like, within the context of this disaster and type of feeling panicked or no matter, usually my intuition is to do one thing good for myself. Like, “I’m gonna purchase one thing for myself.” Like, you realize, “I’m gonna do one thing for my cash that simply advantages me selfishly.” However the information actually means that if I took that instinct once I was feeling yucky and did one thing for another person, that may be much more highly effective for my happiness.
And I feel this can be a actually essential factor to recollect within the context of COVID-19 partly as a result of, you realize, so many people wish to do stuff to type of enhance our wellbeing and doing good issues for others is an efficient route for it. But in addition as a result of many people are getting these tiny little monetary and temporal windfalls that we don’t anticipate, you realize. So if you happen to’re socially distancing at house, you may not be paying cash for fuel or for that subway token to do your each day commute, you realize, so that you’re saving some cash that manner. You may not be shopping for that each day espresso or that each day, you realize, no matter you purchased on the restaurant, you realize, up the road from work, like, and so these are the, you realize, $5 right here, $10 there, these are little monetary windfalls that numerous us might use to do one thing good for another person.
So might you’re taking that cash that you just’re saving in your each day espresso and donate it to an area enterprise that you just wish to be certain that survives this disaster? Might you’re taking that little bit of cash and donate it to a superb trigger? And even if you happen to don’t have any cash as a result of realistically, numerous us are out of labor or in worse monetary conditions now than earlier than, however lots of people have further time on their fingers. They’re getting these little temporal windfalls both since you’re not at work and even if you happen to’re simply not commuting, you will have these further few hours that you just’re type of saving.
And so if you happen to’re in a scenario of getting a time windfall, what might you do with that point to assist different individuals? Might you name an aged neighbor who may want your assist or might you make a name to a political marketing campaign that you just actually cared about or advocate for, say, well being care staff and ensure they get protecting gear that they want? All these little 5 minutes right here, 10 minutes there that we is perhaps saving within the context of this disaster, we are able to put these to good use.
And doing so, once more, doesn’t simply assist our group and do precisely what you stated within the context of the hurricane the place you’re actually serving to different individuals out, it’s additionally serving to your wellbeing, you realize, which is numerous why we wish to spend our cash and wish to spend our time within the first place. We wish to use it in ways in which make us really feel good and doing good stuff for others is a method to do this.
Katie: That’s so nice. And particularly discovering these sensible methods, like methods you talked about, even proper now whereas we’re nonetheless type of disconnected bodily from one another, we are able to nonetheless try this and use that as a technique for happiness. So that you talked about your Yale course that, it was extraordinarily common, I imagine I really learn it was the preferred course in Yale historical past. And also you had all of those faculty college students who actually in all probability had been fighting looking for happiness and there have been in all probability numerous overachievers and type-A personalities.
Lots of the individuals listening in all probability have youthful youngsters, so not fairly to the college-age but. However I do know that’s, I feel that’s high of thoughts for me, which is how can I give my youngsters a robust basis for happiness from an early age in order that they’re not getting to varsity and discovering that they’re sad to start with. And I might guess a few of the identical methods that apply for adults additionally actually work for youngsters. However do you will have something particular that we are able to nurture? Such as you talked about, gratitude was an amazing one, however with our children, even from a younger age to type of set them up for that mindset of happiness?
Dr. Santos: Effectively, I feel the advice that you just gave about, you realize, having your youngsters speak in regards to the issues they’re grateful for over their dinner desk could be extremely highly effective. You already know, constructing these habits in early, I feel, are actually important. However one other one is to type of ensure that as a mother or father, you’re not centered in your youngsters’ circumstances to verify they’re glad. And so by that, I imply issues like what number of accolades they get, whether or not they’re successful their video games, whether or not they’re getting good grades, like all of these issues are the type of issues that, culturally, I feel we consider as good.
You already know, as a mother or father, you need to be certain that, like, your youngsters are setting themselves up as nicely for their futures as potential. However, like, the way in which you try this is perhaps to show them these methods to actually be certain that they’re prioritizing time with their associates and time with your loved ones and constructing social connections, that they’re actually prioritizing taking time without work and taking time to be conscious and savor and see the issues round them. I usually assume that oldsters who attempt to instill of their youngsters issues like a robust meditation follow or a robust behavior of gratitude, like, you’re nearly doing higher for your youngsters than getting them good grades. As a result of really the information means that by highschool, there’s an inverse correlation between good grades and happiness. In different phrases, the happiest college students are inclined to have the worst grades or vice versa, the scholars who’ve the perfect grades should not essentially those which are happiest.
There’s additionally an inverse correlation between grades and optimism, so the scholars with the very best grades are the least optimistic and there’s additionally an inverse correlation between good grades and self-worth. So the children who’ve the perfect grades really, statistically, have a few of the lowest self-worth. And so, once more, simply type of getting the steadiness proper within the sorts of issues that you just as a mother or father prioritize and the talent units that you just’re constructing in your youngsters, I feel, could be extremely highly effective if giving them the following pointers early on. You already know, I want that I had type of taken this class and, like, realized a few of these suggestions once I was a child as a result of then I wouldn’t type of be, you realize, taking the unsuitable path for so long as I had in maturity earlier than I began to study a few of these methods.
Katie: That’s superior. And one other space, so in researching you for this episode, you research happiness so much and also you’ve taught this at Yale, however from what I’ve learn, you additionally research type of what makes the human thoughts distinctive and, like, the variations between people and nonhuman animals, and this can be a fascinating subject to me. So I’d love to listen to simply type of what that research appears like and what are some shocking issues that you just present in that?
Dr. Santos: So this was type of my day job earlier than I turned kind of a happiness skilled is that I’ve at all times been a psychologist. However as a psychologist, I actually give attention to this query of what makes the human thoughts particular. And I’ve studied that by each working with nonhuman primates who stay out within the fields. I labored with a bunch of rhesus monkeys on this island off the coast of Puerto Rico. However much more near house, I do a bunch of research how canine make sense of the world.
Canines are this glorious analogue for people as a result of they grew up in related environments to people, you realize, they’re additionally, are round studying in the identical manner as your child is studying. You already know, they’re selecting up on language and so they’re watching you do stuff and so the query is like, you realize, why does your child develop into a human grownup and your canine type of doesn’t determine that out, proper? And so we try this by kind of establishing a bunch of research with pet canine, so individuals carry their canine in from the group and we do little fast research with them that appear like canine enjoying little puzzle packing containers or enjoying video games.
But it surely lets us check what the canine know in regards to the world. And so we’re actually fascinated with whether or not canine share the identical methods by way of studying from individuals as people do, whether or not they perceive a few of the identical issues we do, we had been actually centered on how they socially consider. So people usually don’t simply, like, see individuals on the market, however we consider whether or not any person is good or imply or, you realize, useful or not useful or, you realize, competent or incompetent. And so we’re fascinated with whether or not or not a few of these methods of viewing the world are shared with canine, too.
And there’s not that a lot overlap between the type of research of animal considering and the research of happiness. I feel one of many spots the place we’re seeing similarities is that we’re discovering a number of domains by which a few of the biases that we’ve got as people, notably the biases that we’ve got to, like, study from different individuals, these sorts of issues is perhaps extra ingrained than we thought. You already know, they is perhaps both, like, new in people and animals don’t present them and even some biases which are so outdated that they’re shared with monkeys.
And I feel when you see that these biases could be actually constructed into our evolution, it makes you notice that issues like, you realize, the truth that we’re prioritizing the unsuitable issues or that we’ve got these unsuitable intuitions, in some methods, it’s probably not our fault. Like, it’s kinda evolution’s fault that they type of constructed us kind of crappily, however by understanding the best science and thru the best interventions, we are able to actually overcome the constraints that evolution provides us and we are able to grow to be higher decision-makers in ways in which we’re utilizing our choices to steer us to much more happiness.
Katie: That’s so cool. I feel this complete space is fascinating and I do know that you’ve many episodes on “The Happiness Lab” if individuals wish to hold going deep on this and it’s actually, really an interesting subject. And I feel even simply typically studying about this, it simply type of rewires your thoughts to look for the methods, look for gratitude, look for methods to be glad and to shift that focus. As we begin to wrap up, what do you are feeling like are just a few of a very powerful takeaways? In the event you needed to type of distill the analysis on happiness proper now, and particularly perhaps by the lens of the present disaster, what can be just a few of a very powerful takeaways that you’d depart with the listeners?
Dr. Santos: I feel we’ve talked about a few of these however I feel one takeaway is simply that happiness is admittedly essential. You already know, we expect that happiness is the result however happiness could make it simpler to have good relationships, it may possibly make it simpler to be productive in your life, it may possibly even make it simpler to guard your immune system. So specializing in happiness first is essential. The second massive tip, and perhaps an enormous false impression is that happiness isn’t what we frequently assume. You already know, it’s not constructed into our circumstances, it’s not constructed into how a lot cash we’ve got or the stuff we frequently assume. We have to do one thing totally different if we wish to be happier.
After which I feel the third takeaway is that these issues that we are able to do to be happier are inside our attain however they actually take some work. You already know, it’s simply so simple as taking time for gratitude or taking time to get your meditation in and eat, you realize, eat a bit more healthy, train. However these issues, if we put the work in, can reap large advantages. So it takes some work however the advantages are large.
Katie: I like it. And lastly, I at all times like to ask if there’s a ebook or quite a few books which have had a dramatic impression in your life that you just’d prefer to share and in that case, what they’re and why?
Dr. Santos: So many books. I feel I’ll decide up, simply to select one ebook, I’ll decide up in your Stoic quote from earlier earlier than, I’ll give a nod to Epictetus who is among the well-known Stoics and his outdated ebook, “The Enchiridion,” which is, it type of loosely interprets to the handbook, however Epictetus begins his ebook with one of many essential premises of Stoic philosophy, which is that there are type of two issues in life. The issues we are able to management like, you realize, our ideas and our emotions and so forth, after which the issues we are able to’t management, which is our circumstances. And Epictetus notes that, you realize, if you happen to attempt to management these items which you can’t management, you’re gonna be depressing otherwise you’re gonna endure, every little thing’s gonna suck. However if you happen to simply give attention to the stuff which you can management, which is your feelings, your mindset, and so forth, nobody can ever hurt you, you’ll at all times be glad.
So I actually, I feel that, you realize, there’s numerous trendy science on happiness and that’s largely what we speak about in our podcast. However I feel the Stoics and numerous the ancients received it proper and that’s simply one of many fantastic manuals for tips on how to, like, type of flip your thoughts right into a thoughts that’s actually good at specializing in the stuff that makes you content.
Katie: I really like that. Laurie, this has been such an superior interview, I feel extraordinarily well timed and essential proper now as all of us navigate this sort of worldwide disaster collectively. And I actually respect you taking the time to be right here and to share all these years of analysis with us right this moment.
Dr. Santos: Thanks a lot. It was nice to speak.
Katie: And thanks as at all times to all of you for listening and in echoing a few of the themes of this episode, we’re very grateful that you just did and that you just had been right here. And I hope that you’ll be a part of me once more on the subsequent episode of “The Wellness Mama Podcast.”
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